Shuttle XPC ST20G5 (cont'd)
Construction
If you read what we had to say about the construction of the SN95G5, the same applies to the ST20G5. We did leave out a few items, however, as that gives us a bit of material that we can use here. Naturally, what we say here applies to both socket 939 G5 models.Click on images to enlarge. |
One of the impressive aspects of the G5 design is the ICE (Integrated Cooling Engine) heatpipe. We won't go into the details of how it all works, but the principle of a heatpipe is to use a liquid within the pipes. As the liquid heats up, it begins to boil and moves through the pipe to the radiator. There, it gets cooled down and condenses back into a liquid. That's a basic overview of what should happen, at any rate. There are a variety of ways to design a heatpipe, and all we can say for sure is that the heatpipe in the G5 appears to cope with the CPU heat output with no difficulties. A smooth copper base rests atop the CPU, with aluminum pipes leading up to an aluminum radiator. The radiator is cooled by a relatively large 92mm fan, which also serves as a case fan. While it may not be sufficient for extreme overclocking, it is a quiet design that performs well with our stock SFF testing configuration.
Click on images to enlarge. |
One minor difference with the ST20G5 is the presence of several heat sinks on various chips. The Xpress 200 only functions as the North Bridge of the motherboard, with a ULi 1573 South Bridge providing additional features. The ATI chipset has active cooling while two other chips use passive cooling. One of these is almost certainly the ULi 1573, although we're not sure about the other. Small, passive heat sinks aren't a bad thing, as they do help dissipate heat from components and they don't add to the noise levels. The small fan on the North Bridge did add to the perceived noise, however. It doesn't really show up on the noise benchmarks, but the noise from the ST20G5 seemed higher in pitch, which humans often perceive as being louder even though it may be at the same dB level.
Setup
The hardware setup for the ST20G5 is unchanged from other G5 models. It requires roughly 15 to 20 minutes to assemble the system. Again, the documentation provided by Shuttle makes the process easy enough for just about anyone to follow. Once the hardware is installed, things become slightly different, based on the model and platform.Click on images to enlarge. |
The BIOS of the ST20G5 is similar to other Shuttle designs, although the use of the ATI chipset does change things a bit. For instance, there are a few items related to the integrated graphics. In the desktop market, there are only a few Xpress 200 motherboards currently available, one being a micro-ATX model from MSI. While it is a good motherboard, one area that is absent is overclocking support. Some have speculated that the reason why MSI didn't include overclocking options was due to the ATI chipset, but Shuttle includes a standard array of overclocking and tweaking settings. We'll discuss how it does in overclocking later.
Click on images to enlarge. |
With the hardware and BIOS configured, it's time to install Windows XP. We were disappointed to discover that the SATA controller on the ULi 1573 is not supported by Windows XP. We received the standard "no hard drives found" error message. Rebooting and using F6 along with the provided floppy disk does fix the problem, but that means that a floppy drive is necessary in order to install Windows. We prefer chipsets like the nForce 4 and i915/925 that can support XP installations without a floppy drive. Unfortunately, that's one of the common problems when using North and South Bridges from different manufacturers.
Once XP is installed, it's time to install drivers once again. As usual, a CD provides the necessary files. For the ST20G5, there are five items to install: the ATI graphics driver, ULi 1573 drivers, both an HD audio bus driver as well as the audio driver itself (you have to install the chipset drivers and reboot before you can do this), and finally, the network driver. Here is where something like Aopen's EZInstall interface would really be welcomed, as each of the driver setup programs wants to reboot the PC after it finishes installing, and at least two reboots are required. We shouldn't really count the graphics driver, as it's something that you normally need to install separately anyway, and there is sure to be an updated version of the driver from ATI by the time you purchase an ST20G5.
Power Problems
As a final comment on the setup process, we mentioned before that our PowerColor X800Pro card required a 6-pin PCIe connection. Even with an adapter that converts two 4-pin molex connections into a 6-pin PCIe connection, things didn't work properly. The system wouldn't even boot when we plugged in the adapter initially. Leaving the PCIe connector off of the PowerColor card didn't work either, as the monitor would simply display an error message stating that the power adapter was required.We thought that the problem might have been somehow related to insufficient power, but we eventually did get things to work by doing some research online. It turns out that the PCIe 6-pin connection should have three +12V pins on one side and three ground pins on the other side; the $5 cable that we bought at a local store had one of the +12V wires connected to ground, causing the system to refuse to boot. Our advice is to wait for an updated power supply from Shuttle, purchase a PCIe graphics card that doesn't require a separate power adapter, or make sure that you have a proper adapter cable. (This same problem could have easily occurred on the SN25P or 330P testing, so just make sure that you have a PCIe power cable for your graphics card if you need it.)
Noise, Heat and Performance
Noise and heat levels were very similar to that of the SN95G5. That's not too surprising, as the only major difference is the chipset and a PCIe X800Pro instead of an AGP version. Performance differences are also relatively minor - a case of "win some, lose some", but rarely by more than a small margin. We definitely don't see any major performance issues with the ATI/ULi chipset combination, which is welcome news.The 3D performance of the IGP still pales in comparison to even a mid-range card like the $90 6600 or X600 Pro. It's basically on par with an X300SE. For non-gamers, this isn't a problem, but even casual gamers will end up disappointed when attempting to play the latest 3D games, as you'll see in our benchmarks. We would reserve the use of the IGP for non-3D applications or games that are more than two years old.
Overall Impressions
As with the SN95G5, we like the overall design of the ST20G5. However, there are still areas where we prefer the nForce 3 Ultra chipset to the ATI Xpress 200. Overclocking is the biggest benefit of the nForce 3/4 chipsets, as the ATI/ULi chipset combination was far more limited. The SATA controller in the nForce chipsets is also preferred because we don't like dealing with floppy disks just to get SATA support working in Windows. Neither issue is a show stopper for most people, but they are shortcomings. The ATI chipset does include integrated graphics of a decent quality, and for users who don't demand a lot from their graphics, it's a nice addition.Would we recommend the ST20G5 right now? Mostly - it's attractive, quiet, and performance is right up there with competing models. The ST20G5 isn't a perfect design, but there is sure to be a market for a SFF with integrated graphics and a DVI connector. The price is a little higher right now than what we would like (at around $350) - you could buy the SN95G5 and a reasonable quality discrete graphics card for less money - but we expect that there's a bit of added inflation right now because the product is newer. It should probably settle into the $325 price range, which is more common for a modern SFF design.
The biggest problem that we encountered with the ST20G5 was the power supply and/or support for PCIe graphics cards that require a 6-pin power adapter. At present, the power supply is the same 240W model used in many other Shuttle cases. The problem is that most of those older designs are AGP models, and PCIe changes a few things. Adding a powerful graphics card - one that requires a 6-pin PCIe power connection - was more troublesome than what we would have liked. Shuttle has told us that they'll be shipping a modified PSU in the future with an integrated 6-pin PCIe power connection, so interested buyers should look for that. If you can't wait for an updated PSU, make sure you that get a PCIe power adapter that's wired properly.
Just in case you miss this in the conclusion, we'll also state it here. One area where the ST20G5 falls flat is overclocking support. While the BIOS lists up to a 255 MHz bus, we could not get a stable overclock above 205 MHz, no matter what we tried. We've seen some other reviews confirming our findings, so if you're looking at overclocking, this SFF is not for you. Above is a picture of our kludged attempt to get the system to overclock - we figured with the power draw being 235W max, overclocking might push the system into unstable territory. Alas, not even our Antec 350W PSU could get the system to overclock. This means that people hoping to grab a Venice or Winchester 3000+ and overclock to 3800+ speeds will want to look elsewhere. We've also heard about problems with the RAID controller, and this isn't something that we tested. We're not big fans of RAID, especially in a small case like the G5. If you're interested in a SFF with RAID support, we'd suggest going with the SN25P instead.
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JarredWalton - Friday, August 12, 2005 - link
I'll hit the KLOSS as soon as I can. (I have it already.) So unless someone else votes, I guess I'll get the KLOSS reviewed next.Sokolum - Thursday, August 11, 2005 - link
For the last 2 months now i have a ST20G5 using as a MCE system. There are a few problems what i have encounbtered, one of them is that the system behaviour changes when i change a setting within the BIOS. Those aren't dramatic changes. But with every change, it looks like that the graphics runs muchmore slower, you can see this with dragging a windows screen over your desktop, you get trails from that window...The system only runs smooth when i *don't* touch those setting. Happily the things keep running smoothly when i enlarge the shared video memory.
For the MCE side, i failed to make the Hauppauge 500MCE run compleetly as it should, i am only able to run TV 'Tunner 1' without problems when i *disable* TV 'Tunner 2' within windows Device Manager. Shuttle or Hauppauge couldn't help me with this case.
As the review documented, this is one of the cases that RAID is causing the problem in this story. In my MCE setup, i don't use RAID (there is *no* room for a seccond drive when you installed a floppy drive). Why RAID is the problem, what i have been told is that RAID wants to use al of the PCI bandwith. It seems the nature of RAID in this kind of systems, just een told, i am not for 100% sure, but it seems plausible to mee.
, a nice looking machine. I solved the problem for the flash cards with buying a floppy disk what come with a integrated card readed, see link:
http://www.alternate.nl/html/shop/productDetails.h...">http://www.alternate.nl/html/shop/productDetails.h...
mino - Thursday, August 11, 2005 - link
Jared I must confes, this is the _first_ time i see everclocking test done as it should have been. I really appreciate the comments for newbies (it makes easier to me to explain to them if you could reference somthing :). Also finally use of correct term oo A64 base freq./FSB issue. I think this way is it should be done for _all_ A64 motherboard review.1) do a maximum base freq. check (by keeping memfreq. around DDR400 + CPU not overclocked
2) do a max memclock test at 1T (with some proven components, just to check quality of CPU to MEM routing on the MB)
3) do some max. overclock test (actually this may be optional since it depend mostly CPU chosen)
Keep at this route and many readers may finaly undestand the basics of A64's OCing.
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 11, 2005 - link
I'm working on some detailed overclocking articles right now. Glad you enjoyed the section, and I'll be going into a LOT more detail (with benchmarks) on some future OC articles.dropadrop - Thursday, August 11, 2005 - link
Thanks for the nice review,If you are considering a followup I would love to see you test usb. While the usb on my sn95g5 v2 works for casual things like a mouse, digital camera and memory card reader, it does not work for an ipod shuffle, external soundcard (hercules dj console), or external hardisk.
There have been alot of people with similar experiences. It wold be great if you could find a way to test the sff's with a few "demanding" usb devices, and even measure the voltage (and stability of it) supplied via usb.
I also second the request for you to test the sn95g5 with an X2. The new bios surely supports them, as people in north america have been getting their current rigs modded by shuttle for support. I would love to see how your's supports it (and maby even venice / san diego) without being modded. I believe you would have the chance to help alot of confused SN95G5 users by trying out a few cpu's in it.
JarredWalton - Thursday, August 11, 2005 - link
I will definitely give it a shot. At present, my intention is to purchase an external IDE HDD enclosure with USB2.0 and 1394A support and do some file transfers and such between that and the system. The problem with that approach is that the enclosures all have an external power source. Can anyone recommend an inexpensive USB/Firewire HDD enclosure that gets the power over the USB port? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82...">I found this one, but I'm not really keen on spending $160 for something I don't personally need.dev0lution - Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - link
How come the SN25P details don't mention the update from nforce4 standard to nForce4 Ultra? I'm thinking of getting one so I went to the previous review and it lists chipset in the specs as the nForce 4 standard, but if you go to Shuttle's current product page for the SN25P it lists the chipset as the Nforce4 Ultra. Who's correct?JarredWalton - Thursday, August 11, 2005 - link
I think I may have just been lazy or neglectful in the original SN25P article. I'm pretty sure it was always nForce4 Ultra. Then again, regular nf4 vs. nF4U only adds SATA-II support IIRC. I don't see anything about SN25P supporting SATA-II which is sort of odd.Cookie Crusher - Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - link
I know it may be a "dated" or more "Entry Oriented" socket, but I have found that the socket 754 SFF systems are great for gaming and general use. Was there ever a roundup for them? If not, I'd like to see maybe a limited look at them to remind everyone that they are viable alternatives to, and about $75-$100+ cheaper than, these socket 939 options.I think it's important to point this out because of the note in the article that a SFF option incurs a premium....maybe so, but there are still cost effective options in that market. thanks.
Cookie Crusher - Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - link
Nevermind.....i found the roundup I was hoping for.....still, would be nice to make that reference to the older socket types as legitimate choices for SFF hopefuls on a budget. :-)