The Radeon HD 4850 & 4870: AMD Wins at $199 and $299
by Anand Lal Shimpi & Derek Wilson on June 25, 2008 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
Derek Gets Technical Again: Of Warps, Wavefronts and SPMD
From our GT200 review, we learned a little about thread organization and scheduling on NVIDIA hardware. In speaking with AMD we discovered that sometimes it just makes sense to approach the solution to a problem in similar ways. Like NVIDIA, AMD schedules threads in groups (called wavefronts by AMD) that execute over 4 cycles. As RV770 has 16 5-wide SPs (each of which process one "stream" or thread or whatever you want to call it) at a time (and because they said so), we can conclude that AMD organizes 64 threads into one wavefront which all must execute in parallel. After GT200, we did learn that NVIDIA further groups warps into thread blocks, and we just learned that their are two more levels of organization in AMD hardware.
Like NVIDIA, AMD maintains context per wavefront: register space, instruction stream, global constants, and local store space are shared between all threads running in a wavefront and data sharing and synchronization can be done within a thread block. The larger grouping of thread blocks enables global data sharing using the global data store, but we didn't actually get a name or specification for it. On RV770 one VLIW instruction (up to 5 operations) is broadcast to each of the SPs which runs on it's own unique set of data and subset of the register file.
To put it side by side with NVIDIA's architecture, we've put together a table with what we know about resources per SM / SIMD array.
NVIDIA/AMD Feature | NVIDIA GT200 | AMD RV770 |
Registers per SM/SIMD Core | 16K x 32-bit | 16K x 128-bit |
Registers on Chip | 491,520 (1.875MB) | 163,840 (2.5MB) |
Local Store | 16KB | 16KB |
Global Store | None | 16KB |
Max Threads on Chip | 30,720 | 16,384 |
Max Threads per SM/SIMD Core | 1,024 | > 1,000 |
Max Threads per Warp/Wavefront | 960 | 256 (with 64 reserved) |
Max Warps/Wavefronts on Chip | 512 | We Have No Idea |
Max Thread Blocks per SM/SIMD Core | 8 | AMD Won't Tell Us |
We love that we have all this data, and both NVIDIA's CUDA programming guide and the documentation that comes with AMD's CAL SDK offer some great low level info. But the problem is that hard core tuners of code really need more information to properly tune their applications. To some extent, graphics takes care of itself, as there are a lot of different things that need to happen in different ways. It's the GPGPU crowd, the pioneers of GPU computing, that will need much more low level data on how resource allocation impacts thread issue rates and how to properly fetch and prefetch data to make the best use of external and internal memory bandwidth.
But for now, these details are the ones we have, and we hope that programmers used to programming massively data parallel code will be able to get under the hood and do something with these architectures even before we have an industry standard way to take advantage of heterogeneous computing on the desktop.
Which brings us to an interesting point.
NVIDIA wanted us to push some ridiculous acronym for their SM's architecture: SIMT (single instruction multiple thread). First off, this is a confusing descriptor based on the normal understanding of instructions and threads. But more to the point, there already exists a programming model that nicely fits what NVIDIA and AMD are both actually doing in hardware: SPMD, or single program multiple data. This description is most often attached to distributed memory systems and large scale clusters, but it really is actually what is going on here.
Modern graphics architectures process multiple data sets (such as a vertex or a pixel and its attributes) with single programs (a shader program in graphics or a kernel if we're talking GPU computing) that are run both independently on multiple "cores" and in groups within a "core". Functionally we maintain one instruction stream (program) per context and apply it to multiple data sets, layered with the fact that multiple contexts can be running the same program independently. As with distributed SPMD systems, not all copies of the program are running at the same time: multiple warps or wavefronts may be at different stages of execution within the same program and support barrier synchronization.
For more information on the SPMD programming model, wikipedia has a good page on the subject even though it doesn't talk about how GPUs would fit into SPMD quite yet.
GPUs take advantage of a property of SPMD that distributed systems do not (explicitly anyway): fine grained resource sharing with SIMD processing where data comes from multiple threads. Threads running the same code can actually physically share the same instruction and data caches and can have high speed access to each others data through a local store. This is in contrast to larger systems where each system gets a copy of everything to handle in its own way with its own data at its own pace (and in which messaging and communication become more asynchronous, critical and complex).
AMD offers an advantage in the SPMD paradigm in that it maintains a global store (present since RV670) where all threads can share result data globally if they need to (this is something that NVIDIA does not support). This feature allows more flexibility in algorithm implementation and can offer performance benefits in some applications.
In short, the reality of GPGPU computing has been the implementation in hardware of the ideal machine to handle the SPMD programming model. Bits and pieces are borrowed from SIMD, SMT, TMT, and other micro-architectural features to build architectures that we submit should be classified as SPMD hardware in honor of the programming model they natively support. We've already got enough acronyms in the computing world, and it's high time we consolidate where it makes sense and stop making up new terms for the same things.
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DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
it looks like the witcher hits an artificial 72fps barrier ... not sure why as we are running 60hz displays, but that's our best guess. vsync is disabled, so it is likely a software issue.JarredWalton - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
Again, try faster CPUs to verify whether you are game limited or if there is a different bottleneck. The Witcher has a lot of stuff going on graphically that might limit frame rates to 70-75 FPS without a 4GHz Core 2 Duo/Quad chip.chizow - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
It looks like there seems to be a lot of this going on in the high-end, with GT200, multi-GPU and even RV770 chips hitting FPS caps. In some titles, are you guys using Vsync? I saw Assassin's Creed was frame capped, is there a way to remove the cap like there is with UE3.0 games? It just seems like a lot of the results are very flat as you move across resolutions, even at higher resolutions like 16x10 and 19x12.Another thing I noticed was that multi-GPU seems to avoid some of this frame capping but the single-GPUs all still hit a wall around the same FPS.
Anyways, 4870 looks to be a great part, wondering if there will be a 1GB variant and if it will have any impact on performance.
DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
the only test i know where the multi-gpu cards get past a frame limit is oblivion.we always run with vsync disabled in games.
we tend not to try forcing it off in the driver as interestingly that decrease performance in situations where it isn't needed.
we do force off where we can, but assassins creed is limiting the frame rate in absentia of vsync.
not sure about higher memory variants ... gddr5 is still pretty new, and density might not be high enough to hit that. The 4870 does have 16 memory chips on it for its 256-bit memory bus, so space might be an issue too ...
JarredWalton - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
Um, Derek... http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3320...">I think you're CPU/platform limited in Assassin's Creed. You'll certainly need something faster than 3.2GHz to get much above 63FPS in my experience. Try overclocking to 4.0GHz and see what happens.weevil - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
I didnt see the heat or noise benchmarks?gwynethgh - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
No info from Anandtech on heat or noise. The info on the 4870 is most needed as most reviews indicate the 4850 with the single slot design/cooler runs very hot. Does the two slot design pay off in better cooling, is it quiet?DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
a quick not really well controlled tests shows the 4850 and 4870 to be on par in terms of heat ... but i can't really go more into it right now.the thing is quiet under normal operation but it spins up to a fairly decent level at about 84 degrees. at full speed (which can be heard when the system powers up or under ungodly load and ambient heat conditions) it sounds insanely loud.
legoman666 - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
I don't see the AA comparisons. There is no info on the heat or noise either.DerekWilson - Wednesday, June 25, 2008 - link
the aa comparison page had a problem with nested quotes in some cases in combination with some google ads on firefox (though it worked in safari ie and opera) ...this has been fixed ...
for heat and noise our commentary is up, but we don't have any quantitative data here ... we just had so much else to pack into the review that we didn't quite get testing done here.