NVIDIA's Fermi: Architected for Tesla, 3 Billion Transistors in 2010
by Anand Lal Shimpi on September 30, 2009 12:00 AM EST- Posted in
- GPUs
The RV770 Lesson (or The GT200 Story)
It took NVIDIA a while to give us an honest response to the RV770. At first it was all about CUDA and PhsyX. RV770 didn't have it, so we shouldn't be recommending it; that was NVIDIA's stance.
Today, it's much more humble.
Ujesh is wiling to take total blame for GT200. As manager of GeForce at the time, Ujesh admitted that he priced GT200 wrong. NVIDIA looked at RV670 (Radeon HD 3870) and extrapolated from that to predict what RV770's performance would be. Obviously, RV770 caught NVIDIA off guard and GT200 was priced much too high.
Ujesh doesn't believe NVIDIA will make the same mistake with Fermi.
Jonah, unwilling to let Ujesh take all of the blame, admitted that engineering was partially at fault as well. GT200 was the last chip NVIDIA ever built at 65nm - there's no excuse for that. The chip needed to be at 55nm from the get-go, but NVIDIA had been extremely conservative about moving to new manufacturing processes too early.
It all dates back to NV30, the GeForce FX. It was a brand new architecture on a bleeding edge manufacturing process, 130nm at the time, which ultimately lead to its delay. ATI pulled ahead with the 150nm Radeon 9700 Pro and NVIDIA vowed never to make that mistake again.
With NV30, NVIDIA was too eager to move to new processes. Jonah believes that GT200 was an example of NVIDIA swinging too far in the other direction; NVIDIA was too conservative.
The biggest lesson RV770 taught NVIDIA was to be quicker to migrate to new manufacturing processes. Not NV30 quick, but definitely not as slow as GT200. Internal policies are now in place to ensure this.
Architecturally, there aren't huge lessons to be learned from RV770. It was a good chip in NVIDIA's eyes, but NVIDIA isn't adjusting their architecture in response to it. NVIDIA will continue to build beefy GPUs and AMD appears committed to building more affordable ones. Both companies are focused on building more efficiently.
Of Die Sizes and Transitions
Fermi and Cypress are both built on the same 40nm TSMC process, yet they differ by nearly 1 billion transistors. Even the first generation Larrabee will be closer in size to Cypress than Fermi, and it's made at Intel's state of the art 45nm facilities.
What you're seeing is a significant divergence between the graphics companies, one that I expect will continue to grow in the near term.
NVIDIA's architecture is designed to address its primary deficiency: the company's lack of a general purpose microprocessor. As such, Fermi's enhancements over GT200 address that issue. While Fermi will play games, and NVIDIA claims it will do so better than the Radeon HD 5870, it is designed to be a general purpose compute machine.
ATI's approach is much more cautious. While Cypress can run DirectX Compute and OpenCL applications (the former faster than any NVIDIA GPU on the market today), ATI's use of transistors was specifically targeted to run the GPU's killer app today: 3D games.
Intel's take is the most unique. Both ATI and NVIDIA have to support their existing businesses, so they can't simply introduce a revolutionary product that sacrifices performance on existing applications for some lofty, longer term goal. Intel however has no discrete GPU business today, so it can.
Larrabee is in rough shape right now. The chip is buggy, the first time we met it it wasn't healthy enough to even run a 3D game. Intel has 6 - 9 months to get it ready for launch. By then, the Radeon HD 5870 will be priced between $299 - $349, and Larrabee will most likely slot in $100 - $150 cheaper. Fermi is going to be aiming for the top of the price brackets.
The motivation behind AMD's "sweet spot" strategy wasn't just die size, it was price. AMD believed that by building large, $600+ GPUs, it didn't service the needs of the majority of its customers quickly enough. It took far too long to make a $199 GPU from a $600 one - quickly approaching a year.
Clearly Fermi is going to be huge. NVIDIA isn't disclosing die sizes, but if we estimate that a 40% higher transistor count results in a 40% larger die area then we're looking at over 467mm^2 for Fermi. That's smaller than GT200 and about the size of G80; it's still big.
I asked Jonah if that meant Fermi would take a while to move down to more mainstream pricepoints. Ujesh stepped in and said that he thought I'd be pleasantly surprised once NVIDIA is ready to announce Fermi configurations and price points. If you were NVIDIA, would you say anything else?
Jonah did step in to clarify. He believes that AMD's strategy simply boils down to targeting a different price point. He believes that the correct answer isn't to target a lower price point first, but rather build big chips efficiently. And build them so that you can scale to different sizes/configurations without having to redo a bunch of stuff. Putting on his marketing hat for a bit, Jonah said that NVIDIA is actively making investments in that direction. Perhaps Fermi will be different and it'll scale down to $199 and $299 price points with little effort? It seems doubtful, but we'll find out next year.
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rennya - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Here in SE Asia, 5870 GPU is available in abundance in retail channels. If you PayPal me USD450, I can go straight to any of the computer shops I passed when I go to work, so that I can buy the card (and a casing that will fit the full length card), then I can take pictures and show it to you.Stop it with the claims that the 5870 launch is just a paper launch. That patently isn't true, and will only make you look stupid.
SiliconDoc - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
I'm sure your email box is overflowing with requests, and I'm sure your walk to work will serve all the customers around the world.Thanks for that great bit of information for those walking to work with you in SE asia, I bet they're really happy.
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Maybe you should get a Reseller ID, and make that millionaire dream of yours come true, and soon when rooster central flaps it up again, you can prove to the world dry as a bone ain't rice paper.
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No, one cannot really fathom the insanity, and red rooster doesn't describe the thickness of skull properly at all, merely the size of it's contents.
rennya - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
Nope, my inbox is not overflowing with requests, because after all, anyone who wants a 5870 GPU, will be able to get it.If you cannot prove that 5870 is a paper launch, maybe you should shut up your shop?
Sozo - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
If we are "red roosters" what does that make you? The green grizzly?SiliconDoc - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Actually the first person to offer any thought on the matter suggested green goblin, which was a decent attempt, since grizzly bears aren't green, and goblins have a much better chance of being so.Howver, if you'd the actual nvidia equivalence of what you ati red roosters are, I'd be happy to provide some examples for you, which I have not done as of yet, and of course you're all too stupid rah-rah to even fathom that. That's pretty sad, and only confirms the problem. I'm certain you can't understand, so don't bother yourself.
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15762/1">http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15762/1
silverblue - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
What sort of rooster are we talking? I mean, a Sussex rooster is almost exclusively not red. Can I be that one, please?Now THAT's trolling.
Natfly - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
I'm thinking a green goober.SiliconDoc - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
If you even believed your own pile of fud, you'd go to page 2 I believe it is in the article and see where anand says " sorry that's all we know about the GT300 the game card, nvidia won't tell us anymore"What he was told is IT'S FASTER THAN 5870, and the cores have already been cut, and the cards already under test.
So we already know, if we aren't a raging red doofus, and of course, that is very difficult for almost everyone here.
Also, this was not an official launch date for NVidia, they never declared it as such, just Anand delcared it in his article.
The official launch date for GT300 already spoken about multiple times by the aithors of this website is !!! > THE RELEASE DATE OF WINDOWS 7...
Now, wether nvidia changes their official launch date before then or not, or where the authors got that former information, one can surmise, but changing their AT tune about nvidia in an article title, for a conference and a web video atttendance, in order to appease the shamed and embarrased 3rd time in a row paper launching ati, 4870,4770, 5870, is not "unbiased" nor is it honest, no matter how much you want it to be.
If a person wants to claim it's a planned LEAK to showcase upcoming tech ( nvidia did this AFTER the GT300 gpu cores reported GOOD YIELD) - and combat fools purchasing the epic failure 5870 instead of waiting for the gold, ok.
siyabongazulu - Friday, October 2, 2009 - link
WOw wow wow!! You sir must be the most ignorant, manipulative, underappreciating, bastard.. sorry for tearing your world but you deserve such credentials and a lot more that can be given to people who display your kind of behaviour.You have been crying bias for no reason at all. If Anand says its paper launch, and if tgdaily says its paper launch (http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/44157/135/)">http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/44157/135/) and fudzilla (http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15762/1/)">http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/15762/1/) which seems to be your favourite source so far doesn't even speak of anything but a display model that only confirms that GT300 is under construction.
So the only source you can come up with is yourself and you said it here and I quote "If you even believed your own pile of fud, you'd go to page 2 I believe it is in the article and see where anand says " sorry that's all we know about the GT300 the game card, nvidia won't tell us anymore"
What he was told is IT'S FASTER THAN 5870, and the cores have already been cut, and the cards already under test. " Those are your words, not NVIDIAs, no Anand, not Fudzilla, not from any other reviwers but yours.
Therefore, can you please STFU and stop trying to label everyone a red nosed rooster or whatever the f*** u call them.
P.S Not everyone appreciate your level of stupidity and before you can go and say geez there goes another one, FIY I'm running my system on Nvidia card and will buy ATI and snould NVIDIA "Physically Launch" GT300 and prove it to be better then already launched and benchamrked 5870 then you can come back and start your ranting. Until then plug that sh** hole of yours
MonkeyPaw - Thursday, October 1, 2009 - link
Dude, you take this way too personally. Do you have the same burning passion for real problems?